Maarten Hoffmann: Paul, how do we encourage more females into technology?
Paul Rolfe: One aspect to consider is role models. When I started my career in technology, it was partially down to a lady who made me want to study this subject. Maggie Philbin was a presenter on the BBC programme, Tomorrow’s World, a show that introduced new technologies. Having women in such roles on TV was both inspirational and cutting-edge.
However, there aren’t many role models on TV for young people to relate to. That’s one of the challenges on a national level, and I’m not sure why that is. Additionally, schools struggle to get female teachers into tech-based roles. It’s about visibility.
And yet, there are some excellent instances of amazing, inspirational women. For example, Dee Mathieson, a Dynamic Awards winner this year – she’s a highly inspirational and insightful woman. But how do we get more inspirational women in front of other women? I don’t know.
MH: Beth. What do you think is the biggest stumbling block for women or girls coming into tech?
Beth Barns-Graham: I agree there are not enough visible female role models in tech. But it’s the same across business as a whole – women ascending to senior management positions are often in the position of having to decide between a career or splitting their time between family and career responsibilities.
That means that you see more women dropping out, especially in fields such as tech. It’s also not the environment that lends itself to truly flexible working, and I think that’s what a lot of women need to happen to make it work. That’s true in law as well, from my experience,
MH: But if, as you say, that’s the same with law and across business, that doesn’t cover the problem about women not choosing tech – if those career issues are the same across the board. What do you think is the problem, Maria?
Mariachiara Restuccia: I’m going to speak as a mother of two girls. I find it fascinating to see how young kids are knowledge sponges. If you provide those stimuli in the form of inspirational and accessible role models, the attitude in the children becomes, ‘Well, why not? Why can’t I be that next one?’
The role of some of the books like ‘Little People, Big Dreams’ or ‘Goodnight Stories for Rebel Girls’ that include role models from a diverse range of professions – including tech and STEM – is vital as it breaks the stereotype that in the lab is only ever a middle-aged white man with a coat.
The way tech is portrayed as being part of the problem. If we look at how AI is illustrated right now, the only imagery we see is of a white man in his 50s with glasses, and not particularly stylish! We need to offer greater visibility to give a variety of tools that are also age-appropriate and speak the language of the kids. If we want kids in science, it needs to be fun, it shouldn’t be boring. We have multiple opportunities to show from the beginning that this is an option.
MH: How do we fix this problem of there being no adult female role models for girls to look up to?
Malgorzata Sulimierska: I offer two perspectives – the first from when I was in a high-tech company, and I was one female on the whole floor. Another perspective is as someone who is a course director for the degree, which is very much for financial technology.
The problems are found at different stages. One stage is when the kids are very young, and there’s a lack of encouragement. We should always try to build a team that works together on a project or a task; that team must be boys and girls. I have two boys and one girl, and the boys say, ‘Only we do science, only boys do that…’ and I have to tell them, ‘No, include your sister.’ Boys and girls can – and should – do these tech tasks from an early age, and do them together.
Then we move to higher education, where fewer girls are choosing tech subjects. That is something that we have to work on, and the role models are very important to them here.
The dynamic in the room is often that the girls on my course would sit at the back of the room, with the boys taking over the discussion. Sadly, they would often say not very smart things. This leads to girls being discouraged.
So now, for instance, one of the things I’m working on in my degree, is that we always have a course rep, one for females, one for males. I’m quite firm on that.
Another aspect is my personal experience. I decided to choose an academic career over industry, as it better caters for my circumstances. You are pregnant for nine months, then you have maternity leave for eighteen. I cannot carry a 12-hour shift as a mother. At least in academia, you can keep in contact with academics for writing papers.
But in industry, it’s very difficult to take the full maternity period off as technology moves so fast that, even if I miss three months, I will be so far behind, that it would be impossible to jump back into any given programme.
MH: I suspect that is an issue in many industries, but in tech particularly. So the problem is that if there are no female role models, we need lots of women to come in – and wait 30 years for any of them to become a female role model.
MR: I’d say that there are role models out there. We need to find them. I’ve been asked to review a book in computing technology, highlighting all the pioneering women who have contributed to major developments – from Wi-Fi and so on; to the women who cracked the code, so to speak. They are there. We need to give them visibility and celebrate those who made it because they are the pioneers. We don’t give them enough of a voice.
MH: If it’s a case of finding and acknowledging them, doesn’t it start at school?
PR: It’s long been thought that, in education, parents play a key role in forming what their children go on to do, and there are a lot of built-in stereotypes in parents that need to be broken down.
There are now some companies that are starting to challenge this and helping to inform things. For example, I love going on a cruise; there’s a company called Celebrity Cruises that has had a massive push on females in leadership roles in their cruise ships, and they celebrated the first cruise ship that went out with a female captain, female engineer, female navigator. It wasn’t a gimmick, it just happened that way. It’s these initiatives that can disrupt parents’ thinking and maybe consider, ‘Do you know what? My daughter can be an engineer.’ We need more companies to be bold and showcase their female employees and leaders to start to change societal views.
MH: Do you think schools could more often bring in female role models to talk to the children, especially to girls, on tech and STEM subjects? Is enough being done?
PR: More can always be done. We work with someone called Joanne Henderson, who looks after cloud technologies for Gatwick Airport, and she’s pushing herself to be involved and get in front of young people, which is fantastic, and we can make those things work. But yes, there’s always more to be done.
BBG: There’s also an issue, at primary school level where it all starts, with children wanting to do the same things that their friends are doing. A lot of parents would be very keen to ensure that the girls have the opportunity to do what are considered male activities and subjects.
I’ve got a boy and a girl, and they split down party lines because that’s what their friends are doing. My daughter wants to do ballet because all her friends are doing ballet. And my son wants to do coding because the boys are in the after-school Coding Club.
It works a lot better, though, within the lessons they have in the school when they do integrated tech or coding lessons. It breaks down those barriers. Left to their own devices, and not pushed into those environments, the girls, in particular, don’t feel confident enough to do things which they see that all the boys are doing.
MH: Is there any benefit in doing coding lessons just for girls? That’s where the confidence comes from. They’ll then ask all the questions they might’ve thought ‘dumb’ that they wouldn’t have done in front of boys. I put my girls into all-girls schools, as the evidence shows that girls are better educated with girls, while boys are better educated with… girls. The girls tend to push themselves forward.
BBG: I had exactly that experience. I went to a girls’ grammar school and I found it a lot easier to be confident.
MS: Both of my sons and my daughter play for Horsham Rugby Club. Up to eight years old, they played together. In the beginning, it was very difficult, because the girls only passed to the girls, and boys passed to the boys. They are divided. But what is amazing, and I pay respect to the coaches here, the majority of whom are fathers with daughters in the team, is they pass to each other, and they start playing as a group. So where my son only ever passed to another boy, he now passes to girls as well, and they start playing as a team, which teaches them and they transfer that learning in later life in other skills.
Also, interesting research has been done that says that daughters of leaders – coaches in this instance – are much more likely to become female leaders themselves. And given the nature of rugby as a sport, one which relies on teamwork more than any other, is it’s influential in the friendships that they develop – boys and girls. It’s not a barrier to my son as he knows they are part of a team.
MH: Beth, you didn’t do a STEM subject but it wasn’t that long ago that law was such a male-dominated profession. Now I find there are more women than men in my experience…
BBG: it’s refreshing, and a firm like Cripps, where I work, women are in all kinds of management roles. The vast majority of those women have children, but all work full-time. There is still a problem in the City, within senior roles, though they are making great strides to work on that.
Funnily enough, one of the things that’s helped in law is tech. The ability, post-pandemic, to work remotely is something some law firms could move towards; a true hybrid working system. That flexibility, that remote working, will see more women continuing in those professional roles.
MH: Accountancy was another male-dominated profession. It was about four years ago we reported it was finally 51% women in accountancy. Other sectors are moving. Law and accountancy didn’t have female role models – is that the reason why that barrier is there in tech?
PR: You’re right when you talk about that flexibility. With that in mind, it was disheartening to read recently that CEOs are saying that in the next two to three years, everyone will be back in the office.
BBG: It’s very frustrating. We’re having drives, in the law profession, to get people back in the office to, quite rightly, promote the training of juniors who need that face-to-face support. But I do feel there’s a place for hybrid working, and being flexible.
MH: We’ve discussed the lack of role models, which is part of the problem. Can we come up with a solution to this?
MR: Another angle we could explore would be using the creative industries, and using the power of media to support this. And I’m saying this because a lot of our businesswomen might have little time to visit so many schools. But what if we could start offering materials that are either videos or books that the kids can access in the room when they need to choose their book for the week?
What if, alongside all the stories of unicorns and castles and rainbows, there is something about a scientist or an astronaut? And there is a female Sussex graduate who is an astronaut right now. What if those faces can become more familiar?
And that’s where the power of documentaries, movies, and TV series comes in – in breaking the stigma. If we think about so-called taboos in the past, such as homosexuality, and how they changed thanks to positive role models that normalise how people react. It may not be the silver bullet solution, but we need to look at all the possible contact points to make sure that those resources are accessible.
MH: Chiming with that is research that said the vast majority of girls, stated, ‘I want to do something with my career that’s of benefit to the world. I want to make a difference.’ Of course, tech falls into that, yet somehow it’s not translating from what they want to do into a career. Something’s putting them off.
PR: Technology has permeated through different industries at varying speeds. I just wonder whether that growth in technology in different industries will help more women get into tech – especially as the definition of what ‘tech’ is, broadens. It could be an exciting opportunity.
BBG: We’ve seen that in law. As a female lawyer, I have to use tech every single day. We’re constantly thinking of new ways to, for instance, make transactions faster. And we have to be on top of the latest legal tech all the time. It’s not an excuse to say, ‘I don’t know how this works.’
MH: Did you have to gain that knowledge in the firm? Or did you come in with that knowledge?
BBG: I had to gain it. However, some of our paralegals – people coming through – are incredibly tech-savvy, and so are running these resources and helping us understand how we can make the most out of it.
MR: I would say marketing is the same. There is hardly a marketing campaign that goes on without there being a tech element, or without having an awareness of the digital space. Whatever happens, you’re using it. So I’m wondering to what extent we need to talk about women in tech, or is it just in the new digitally-empowered marketplace because that’s where we all operate?
MH: That’s extremely relevant, because even without knowing it, ‘tech’ is everywhere. So it does become an integral part, even if you’re not in a tech field.
BBG: And then you move on to AI, with the new worry of, ‘Will AI take my job?’ Law is one of those areas where you can ask AI a legal question, and it will come up with a possible answer. However, there are still ways in which AI is deficient, and may not understand the nuances and permutations that you can put to a client. What needs to happen first is how to interpret AI, use it and harness it.
MS: When it comes to women working in the field of tech, in 2016, when we created the FinTech degree, we had only one girl who joined us, out of a group of 20. Now, though, we have 30% female, and we are close to having 50%.
Another thing we have at Sussex is something we call FinTech Coffee Connect where we bring our graduates to come back and talk. It’s something I very much encourage. Our first female graduate did indeed come back and talk with the students, and told them her story.
The project we are developing now is a chatbot; an AI tool for teaching purposes. We have a team of girls developing it. I think it’s very encouraging, but we need to point out that we are building in teams. Some of the girls are amazing coders, but they focus a little too much on details, and they lose the total picture. So we introduce a male who adds – who needs to add – a different perspective. It’s more like a synergy that we are building, and it will come. It will happen by itself. I love creating mixed teams. I insist on them, mainly because they naturally tend to split into male and female teams.
MR: This is why tech is such an interesting space to look at. We’re breaking the barriers between the user and the developer. For example, the people start using the technology, then realise that there is an opportunity to potentially access the tool to develop a solution to something that may have come up. The more technology becomes part of our lives, the more we use that piece of technology to create the next piece. Who knows who will be the next developer?
This, in turn, creates almost a virtuous circle. So I find it interesting that hopefully what we have seen in accounting and in law, women – as end-users – might be the next in line as developers, because we are now heavily using technology, we might come up with ideas about how we could do our jobs and tasks better.
BBG: We do that at our place. We’ll have a piece of tech at work, our tech-minded female legal teams have an idea of how it might be made better, and work with the developers to improve it.
MH: That’s what lights the fire, isn’t it? Sometimes it’s coming up with an idea to make something better. Paul, tell us about Team Tech?
PR: It’s being run by Maggie Philbin, and it’s an opportunity for schools to come to an exhibition venue, get involved in hands-on activities that are curated, and then for businesses to put on interactive displays and opportunities, for young people to explore. Universities and several companies are taking part; it’s inspirational, as it gives young people the opportunity to see the range of available careers. And it’s happening again this year. We, through the Institute of Technology, are making a conscious effort to ask our companies who are taking part to try and have diverse representation on the stands. We’re investing for the second year.
MH: Is there a way to encourage more girls than before?
PR: The schools choose who comes along, and this is an opportunity for them to encourage more females. This is possibly where Dynamic can come in and focus one of the days on females.
MH: Going to one of these things, seeing an exhibit, a demonstration of something going on – and that fire can be lit for life…
PR: I’ve seen it happen before, where a young person’s gone up to a particular stand, and something has been ignited, they’ve built a relationship, and it’s gone from there. Sometimes, all that young person needs a champion to light that fire.
MR: We need a champion at all levels. We particularly need women in venture capital and other types of investment funds that are trying to promote more female businesses. There have been a lot of networks that are starting; some are even more established than others. We need them just to give those voices and faces a space. There is a movement that is there, including those female role models, but who just need to break through so much competition. Even if men are becoming more aware of these issues, we can still find, through those networks, more space given to the pioneers or those who want to take a risk.
BBG: At Cripps, we have partnered with a network called the ‘Wealthy Her’ network. Earlier this year, they launched the ‘Techie Her’ network. And I was at the launch event for that, and it was fantastic. We had some great female entrepreneurs in to speak. And they listed the depressing stats about investment in female tech entrepreneurs.
The launch was held in the City of London and was filled with old-school City types. And even though it was supposed to be championing women, I realised this is a good way to get real traction and engagement.
By making it an all-inclusive launch, we made sure that those men in the senior roles, and especially those in the corporate finance world, got to see so many of these female tech entrepreneurs in front of them while getting them to understand the challenges women face.
MH: I’ve found three examples in the UK and the US where – and this is potentially a major problem – funding for promoting and educating women in tech is being stopped. Tech companies are being blamed for quietly moving away from their equality, diversity and inclusion commitments.
The UK is facing an acute shortage of workers with digital skills. Computer coders, cyber security experts and data analysts are all in high demand; two-thirds of technology firms are experiencing a shortage of skilled workers, and yet, comically, the money is being cut for diversity roles that bring women into tech. Meanwhile, tech - as an industry - is screaming out for more people.
Depressingly, nobody within the government or large corporations with big budgets is doing anything about it. Worse, they’ve actively pulled back the money that they had put into it, leaving women with nowhere to go.Without that funding, diversity ceases to exist. How do we fix this?
MR: I would put a call to the readers of this magazine because that’s a question that goes beyond education and some of the sectors we work in. It’s the same with marketing. When things are tough, we cut marketing, and often it’s a time when we most need marketing to make sure that we have enough customers.
And that’s where we need to become more aware of the long-term implications of some of these decisions. Often, when times are tough, as it is now, with soaring energy costs, and the cost of living crisis, your cash becomes the most precious currency. So you think about surviving in the short term. I hope that when things settle, and we recover, there is more willingness to focus on the long term and become aware of the implications of some of these cuts.
MH: The trouble is, as with many things, cutting in the short term damages the long term. It’s a vicious cycle that’s going to damage our tech reputation in the world and place us further and further down the league table.
MS: Regarding the cutting of private investment, if the private sector does that, public money has to get involved. We need government intervention to put in rules and regulations that force companies and institutions to put money into development. We need these regulations – everything else is regulated, so why not tech investment?
Government spending has to be put in certain areas to stimulate that. It doesn’t have to be female-dominated, but it has to be a way of scholarship for talented people. The training to get a PhD in any science takes years and costs thousands, and this precludes many if not most, people, especially those from not so well off households.
The money should follow the talent, those who are the first in their class. It doesn’t necessarily just mean the females, but given the untapped female talent out there, and by creating scholarships which students can get, we can have our next generation of… anything. Including tech experts.
BBG: Talking of funding gaps, that crunch period where you get your female role models in your 30s, this lack of funding also precludes women from leaving the workforce temporarily, beyond statutory maternity provisions. And there’s no funding for any of these catch-up programmes. They need to be funded by the big corporates, the large private entities – but, to them, it’s about short-termism.
MH: The trouble is, universities are struggling badly. There has to be a reorganisation of the way the universes are funded.
PR: There are a couple of opportunities. Apprenticeships have been around for a while. And there’s the levy, though stats show that a lot of the big corporations aren’t spending their levy well enough. Some smaller companies are considering it. So there’s an opportunity to use the levy for businesses to address that, and it’s a cost-effective way of doing it. One of the innovative things that we’re looking at is one of the first female leadership apprenticeships. It’s going to give women an opportunity to get together, to learn, and also to build their power network.
The government also has something called Skills Boot Camps; it’s a short, intense programme designed to either upskill people or to retrain. While the stats may show that we are poor at attracting people in their early careers to choose Tech, it’s worth considering what retraining looks like, either through formal or informal learning.
We talked about companies being flexible in being able to offer jobs. Are we doing enough in flexible education? Because we’re talking about women returners, because they’ve had a child and perhaps they don’t want to go back to whatever they were. Are those educational opportunities affordable and flexible enough so you can drop children off and pick them up?
MR: As a higher education professional, this is a question I keep asking myself. Are we doing enough? We lack flexibility. It can take two years to get a new module approved, let alone a new course. In that time, everything has changed. Two years ago. If we don’t even embed a certain flexibility, how do we keep our courses up to date?
At the same time, I’m interested in the range of micro-credential or small certifications out there. LinkedIn, for example, offers short courses in specific areas. There are complementary or alternative ways to educate and retrain the workforce or individuals.
MH: The female brain is wired in such a way they’re better at some of these tech and STEM subjects than men. Would you concur?
MS: I do agree with that. Based on my experience as a course director, it’s very often girls who perform better – by 10 or 20%. They perform better during university time. Very often, they are much better at getting a job after they graduate. This year, all of my female students got a job before they even graduated. They were very clear and focused on what they wanted. A lot of the boys, however, had the attitude of not knowing what they wanted to do after graduating.
It was good to put them in the group, because they were all very supportive of each other, stimulating each other. The issues start at around 30 when the tech companies don’t offer support to women, especially if they have to sacrifice their careers for their families. This is compounded by the lack of support to catch up with the required skills for those returning from maternity leave.
MH: I look at someone like Alison Rose. She saw the shortfall in investing in women, had NatWest put aside £2 billion for such investment, which proved an immediate hit, and subsequently got fired, with her name erased from her own far-reaching research and review. Since then, NatWest has no longer ring-fenced women in business ventures. It’s all a bit damning, isn’t it?
MR: We are stubborn. Despite all of this, I’m pleased to see that women are still pushing hard for funding. We keep being told what is impossible, but I see women who will not accept that, and seek to prove the people who turn them down wrong. What might help is if Dynamic Magazine were to provide an available directory resource – where you are a woman, you want to invest in tech, or you have an idea. It will be competitive; but if two billion went in less than a year, it means that the demand is there. So keep promoting these opportunities.
BBG: Companies like Cripps do offer support for women-based tech networks. It has been happening for a while, so a certain amount of assistance is being provided in all kinds of places. We offer legal services, but ultimately, we are women in business too.
MS: Additionally, we need to grow our mentor schemes. It can be great for a very young age when we have women as leaders. At Sussex, I encourage my female graduates to come back and mentor the students. We keep in contact with them, and I find it genuinely works. Mentoring is essential for females to grow.
Separately – and I’ve experienced this as a mother – is the issue of how few networking events I can attend as they are usually in the evening, during my own family time. I acknowledge that this is a work/life choice, but it can affect my career as I can’t get the business or a promotion as I am not out there meeting other people. It may be easier for women who have yet to start a family, but it does mean it’s harder for me.
Added to that, I am finding younger women are reluctant to go to networking events. This is something I ask mentors to help with, to encourage them along, as networking is essential. But I struggle to make it to these as I have my family.
MR: We need to bring in our partners, and work together. I found that I was able to go to some events because we took turns.
BBG: You have to do that, otherwise it doesn’t work. It’s helpful that there are more lunch and brunch networking events. Senior men are suggesting, to encourage women to attend, to have networking events at a more convenient time for those who otherwise might struggle to attend.
MR: I think we have made great strides, especially with maternity returning to work, compared to the past. However, I want to consider the whole female working life cycle, including menopause and perimenopause. If we want to break through the glass ceiling, we need to focus not just on the schools and universities, we must consider all stages, including into senior management, and acknowledge the major transformations we go through in the latter stages of our careers. Some workplaces are good at providing that. If we take a holistic look at this issue; it starts with a role model when we are kids, but let’s ensure that we provide the support that we need throughout our careers.
MH: Let’s get back to female mentors. Have you been mentored yourselves by them?
MS: When I joined Sussex, I was finishing my PhD, when Professor Carol Alexander approached me and asked if I would be interested in staying. Having such a strong female mentor; a leader, the editor of one of the biggest banking and finance journals, and someone who has a long experience in industry, saying that it would be a good idea for me to stay. That was amazing! I had been planning to go, but I had a female leader who could change my perspective. I wouldn’t have stayed at Sussex if Professor Alexander was not that leader.
BBG: Female mentors are so important. I trained and qualified at a big City law firm, and I don’t think I’d have felt as safe, supported and comfortable if I didn’t have some ferocious female partners who had smashed their way up the chain themselves, but did not kick the ladder out from underneath them. All the way through, you need that encouragement and support.
MR: It’s often this sisterhood that you need. We need to support each other, to move forward. But at the same time, my biggest supporter was my head of department, who was a very understanding man. He pushed us, a lot of women, to go through promotions, to apply – and he really supported us.
But so many women suffer from a lack of confidence. The number of times I’ve heard women in business or tech say ‘I feel like an imposter.’ This imposter syndrome is always there. Despite achieving what we have done, and making it into senior positions, we still feel like we are not good enough, and it’s an idea we need to remove from our heads because ultimately we are capable.
MH: You bring up imposter syndrome; it’s a pet subject of mine. I wrote a piece mentioning 85% of women and 11% of men suffer from it. That’s nonsense because I’d say it’s closer to 80% of men.
We’re just really good at hiding it.
MS: Maybe it’s a trick!
MH: Well, it is a trick. And that trick is saying to yourself, ‘No, I should be here.’ But for that number of women who do suffer from imposter syndrome, it’s so frustrating because I believe women are better than men in so many roles. However, with my daughters’ generation, and I see it in them and their friends too, they’re not taking rejection or casual dismissal lightly. They’re full of passion and ready to go. I just hope it doesn’t get beaten out of them. That’s my worry – I want them to have that fire, and not have it knocked out of them.
MR: We’re all responsible – from the school to the university to the professions. That passion – it’s not to be taken away. If we show that this will make a society where we can all flourish, I can then look at my daughters, and my students with hope. Otherwise, I wouldn’t be doing this job. And there is the capacity to support that.
MH: We’re nearing the end of our discussion. May I have a closing statement from each of you?
MS: In my experience, females have a greater sense of multi-tasking diversity. Boys, on the other hand, focus on one task at a time. And this, to me, is representative of a changing workforce; of needing to have a broader range of skills and expertise. So if I consider the jobs market in 10-20 years, I think the future is so much brighter for women in tech.
PR: We’ve still got a long way to go. But I’m optimistic. Organisations are learning what we need to be doing. Education is learning, and sharing best practices, and there’s a lot more collaboration going on, and there’s a deep understanding that diversity is needed in the workplace. People are waking up to that. So I’m optimistic, but there are going to be some challenges along the way,
BBG: I agree there’s a lot to be optimistic about, but there’s equally still a lot of work to do. Forums like this are excellent for going over those important discussion points and making sure we’re thinking, not just about the challenges ahead, but also about solutions.
MR: The problem is so big that there is no silver bullet. But if every single stakeholder realises there is no such thing as a small action, we don’t know what can then be achieved.
PR: Wouldn’t it be something if Sussex - the university and the county – became the leader in female tech? If you’re a female tech entrepreneur, come to Sussex.
MR: With the likes of Silicon Brighton, Dynamic Magazine and other networks, these are precisely going in the right direction. If you’re an entrepreneur, no matter who you are, and you want to work in tech, this is a supportive environment.
MH: I love a positive ending! Thank you very much for your time and insights. I’ve heard very positive things from you all today, especially as far as the university is concerned, I feel like we’re going in the right direction. I certainly feel more positive now than when I walked in this morning. So thank you for that.
